If you’ve ever gone looking for answers to SEO questions, then you’ve heard of today’s guest. Barry is one of the most prolific and knowledgeable SEO writers and bloggers around. He’s the SEO that other SEOs go to for help.
(Sorry Barry, but I love the face you’re making here)
In his day job, he runs Rusty Brick, a successful web services firm based in New York. But, if you’re like me, you know him as the founder of Search Engine Roundtable and the news editor of Search Engine Land.
For purely selfish reasons, I chose to focus on SEO. Specifically, we discussed…
- SEO and user experience (UX)
- Technical SEO and the typical marketing plan
- Is there such a thing as a Google “search bubble?”
- Is Google too big to fail?
- Google+ and the future of Google in social media
Let’s dive in!
Digital Transcript (Edited for Readability)
Introductions
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Hello, everyone, how are you doing? My name is Jon-Mikel Bailey, and this is the Wellspring Digital Chat Series where we go out we find marketing experts. Through the power of dark arts, we are able to tap into all the data stores in their brain, we pluck out all the stuff that we need. And then we send them on their way. And they have no idea what happened. It’s everybody’s everybody’s good. Everybody’s in great shape, and no one was harmed.
So my intros are really getting quite weird. So anyway, today, if you’ve ever gone looking for answers to SEO questions, then you’ve heard of today’s guest. Barry is one of the most prolific and knowledgeable SEO bloggers out there. He’s the SEO that other SEOs go to for help. So if that tells you anything. So I’m really excited to have him on.
And I know you good people will get some useful knowledge out of this as well. Barry, if you could please go ahead and introduce yourself to these fine, folks.
Barry Schwartz: Thanks for having me. I’m Barry Schwartz, as it says on the screen. I’m not actually an SEO, I write about SEO, I’ve been writing about SEO for about 20 years. I love the topic of SEO, I speak about it. Of course, I have my own websites that we produce, but my company, we build software, a lot of web-based software. But I have a passion towards SEO and you’re right like a lot of SEOs do come to me for SEO advice.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: And that’s why I’m talking to you so. So for today, I don’t necessarily need you to be an SEO, I just want to tap into your SEO knowledge because it is vast. And I think this will be great. I like having you know, digital marketing, SEO experts on for my own purely selfish reasons because I want to learn. I got SEO questions, and I need answers as well.
So today, Barry, you’re in the hot seat, and we got some questions for you. So you’re ready for this?
Barry Schwartz: Always ready. Let’s go ahead.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Let’s do it.
Page Experience, SEO, and User Experience (UX)
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So I want to start with a page experience update. I feel like this update has been in the making for some time now. And for me, page experience really started with mobilegeddon. And the mobile-first indexing or maybe earlier, this update really is about user experience UX, correct. I mean, in your opinion, how much is user experience an SEO factor?
Barry Schwartz: Right. So actually, this actually started before the mobilegeddon, I think it was 2015 or so Google announced it in 2014, actually shocked the SEO world by saying they actually started to fully render the page and see the page as it is as opposed to just looking at the source code of the page. And picking up source code would actually render inside of this piece of content here that piece of content is there navigations over here, ads are over there.
And that was like oh, well, Google is actually able to now see where we lay things out on our pages and old the old tricks of you know, CSS positioning for getting your text above the different areas to kind of trick Google to think that the content contents more important the other. Google’s now like, oh, we know where the content is on the page. So you can’t really trick us per se.
Not that people would necessarily trick but it was something that was there. So I think Google really started this concept, at least, you know, rendering the page and understanding what the page looks like in 2014. You saw first with the mobile-friendly update, which we nicknamed mobilegeddon, which was kind of ridiculous to call it again.
Because it really wasn’t really something that was not so significant. And yeah, you know, paid experience, UX, you know, that type of page experience, update all that type of stuff. If you look at the page experience update, it really looks at a bunch of different things. It looks at, you know, HTTPS, intrusive, most mobile interstitials is a site mobile-friendly mobilegeddon, like you said.
Now, obviously for desktop purposes, but then added this new layer of like core web vitals, so like LCP, FID, CLS. So yeah, I mean, I think it is a lot about the user experience. And it’s hard for Google to say, you know, there’s lots of these PageSpeed tools or user experience tools that measure user experience. And this page experience, they kind of said, Alright, these are the page experience factors that we’re looking at.
We may plug in new ones, we may remove old other ones as well. And they’ve done that over the years where they’ve actually removed one of the old page experience update factors, I forgot which one it was, actually was Safe Browsing. That’s not, that’s not really an experience thing. If your site’s hacked, it’s an issue.
But they have also removed it when they launched the desktop version on this, which they launched back in February, March of this year. Obviously, mobile-friendly is not a factor for desktop pages. So there’s lots of different things here with that. And I think what we need to know and whoever’s listening is that while UX is super important, it’s super important for your conversions, is super important to make sure your users are happy.
It’s a very small, very, very, very lightweight ranking signal. Everything I’ve seen so far with all the past page experience on days before was actually named page experience, from HTTPS to mobile interstitials, to all those types of things around, you know, mobile-friendliness, all those things really had a very lightweight impact on Google’s rankings.
And then when Google launched the page experience update for mobile, same thing, really, really lightweight signal for rankings. And then with a Desktop Update just a couple of months ago, or a month ago, actually finished rolling out that also had a very, very lightweight signal.
So I think, calling it a “geddon” or thinking it’s a big SEO factor is a mistake, it is important for other reasons. And you should focus on user experience factors. Mostly for the user, not for the search engine, which kind of is funny, when you think about it that way?
So in general, when generally when you see Google announced updates that give you months and months to prepare for, those updates are generally very, very minimal updates. It’s the ones that Google announces the same day or after the fact, yeah, we released the core update, oh we released Panda. Those are the kinds of things that really have a significant impact, the ones that Google doesn’t pre-announce. So those are the things that you have to kind of think about.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Are they toying with us? Are they trying to make our lives more difficult? I’m just kidding.
Barry Schwartz: Only your life.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Yeah, only my life? Yeah, they’re targeting me. Um, yeah. I mean, it seems like the, you know, it’s much ado about nothing, you know, sometimes with all of these, these types of announcements, but I mean, is it safe to say that that, do you think UX is going to grow in importance as a ranking factor? Or is it really gonna stay rather minor? Crystal ball time.
Barry Schwartz: It depends. I mean, ultimately, Google wants to rank the most relevant search result. Now you can have the best user experience and not be relevant to the query. So obviously, if somebody’s searching for my company, Rusty Brick, there’s nobody else is trying to compete with the term “rusty brick.” So even if my website has the worst user experience in the world, Google is still gonna rank because it’s the most relevant.
If you’re in a position where you are competing for a very competitive keyword. And the first five results all have everything equal in terms of all other factors, links, content, everything. It could be a tiebreaker, it could be like, alright, this site has a little better, you know, a little faster, a little better user experience. But again, I would probably focus more on the content and what you can do that’s different from the competitors.
Obviously, user experience is important. But don’t think the SEOs need to focus so much on the user experience side, I think it’s more of a, you have a UX person focus on that and think about what’s special user and not really worry too much about what Google thinks is best for the user.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So I’m not an SEO, I’m a content guy. So I love that answer. But, you know, I do see the value.
Technical SEO and the Typical Marketing Plan
Jon-Mikel Bailey: And I’ve learned a ton since I’ve been working at Wellspring about technical SEO. We work with a lot of marketing directors, CMOs, and the like. And I wonder, you know, how much should technical SEO inform a typical marketing plan for a small business? Is it something that they need to, you know, wring their hands about? Or is it maybe they should have a general knowledge of, in your opinion?
Barry Schwartz: So I think it depends on the type of website, I think. A smaller website with a WordPress blog, WordPress sites don’t really have many technical SEO issues unless you hack it to death. And as a massive site, I think larger sites generally tend to have to worry more about technical SEO, older sites with legacy content tend to have to worry more about technical SEO issues because they have old URLs, duplicate content issues, canonicals, hreflang, all these types of things, which are very, very important for a lot of sites.
But if you have like, I don’t know, a 5-page, 20-page, even 100-page website, generally, technical SEO is not that important. I would focus more on the content side, making sure you have a lot of content that’s useful for users. But when it comes to doing SEO for larger sites, you know, 1000 pages plus, you probably have to start looking at the technical SEO areas where maybe there are URLs that are kind of being generated with weird characters on them.
Or you need to implement some, you know, certain types of mark up or stuff like that, maybe schema, structure data, those require some technical SEO knowledge. Then obviously, you have the sites that have major technical debt, which are producing unlimited URL parameters and filters and faceted navigation and pagination, language issues, translation.
Those kinds of things really need to be dealt with when it comes to technical SEO, and then the really, really, really massive sites like millions, billions of pages really have to worry about what’s called crawl budget. Is Google crawling on my pages, in the crawling important pages, and crawling it fast enough? Do I have to do anything to improve that crawl budget, but that’s really like, high-level stuff that isn’t really that complicated, but it’s something that you should really focus on.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So content is still sort of key, in your opinion, in terms of the small businesses and obviously, you know, making content that that solves problems and helps the potential clients. I think, in my opinion, you know, I think sometimes marketing directors get a little bit too much knowledge about what technical SEO is, and they sort of go down these rabbit holes, of getting fixated on, you know, one issue or another issue. And I don’t know if you agree with that, but seems like a struggle.
Barry Schwartz: I mean, I don’t think it’s just, I don’t think it’s just SEO. I think it’s people get fixated with what they think is, oh, this is a problem for me, I need to solve it, it could be a health issue.
And you know, you’re loading up on vitamin D, when they probably didn’t even take a blood test. Because you know, there’s a report that says, to reduce your chances of getting sick, you need a lot of vitamin D, and they load up on it. And then they’re toxic in other ways, or whatever it might be, I don’t know, I’m not a doctor.
But I think people in general when they think they know something about something, and they see all these other sites had this issue, and they told me that this extent, you see that all the time with SEOs and site owners where they’re like, oh, this person told me this. So we need to focus on that. And sometimes it’s like, well, you’re focusing on the wrong thing. It might be the case.
But you really need some really experienced SEO to take a look at your website and say, alright, at least do an audit, I guess, in some sense, and say, these are the big issues. This is the order you should tackle them. And if and if you have all the resources in the world, then maybe work on the other things that are maybe less important because not everything is equal.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Seems like they need a worry budget.
Is There Such a Thing as a Google “Search Bubble?”
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So you do these Search News Buzz Videos, which are very helpful and you talked about comments from Danny Sullivan addressing statements made by former presidential candidate Andrew Yang and Ramesh Srinivasa. I’m oversimplifying here. But it was basically (Danny Sullivan) correcting those two about the idea that Google keeps users within a “search bubble.”
I think their statements are often made by many and you know, especially in marketing, can you talk a little bit about what this was about? And, you know, am I is my assumption, correct? That, yeah, that many marketers are sort of, or many people have this, this notion of how Google works.
Barry Schwartz: Alright. So first, for me, he was basically talking to Andrew Yang on his, I guess, podcast, about this kind of filter bubble or search bubble type of issue where he is misinformed and that Google has personalization when it comes to search, where if you only care about topic x, or you’re very into topic X, Google will just keep showing you that information over and over again, and not show you the reality of what’s really going on in the world.
And basically misinform you over and over again. That’s a very simplistic view of it. I know, what if you do search for what is the filter bubble? You’ll probably read about this. And it’s more common in like Facebook and social networks than it is, you know, search. And the truth is, Google tried to do a lot of personalization back in like 2010.
Even before that, and Google scaled that back then like it’s not working, it’s not making search more relevant because people are getting are in their filter bubbles. And that’s not something that we as a search company, want to give people the most relevant information to their query. And the most factual information to agree not to Google knows a fact is, but in general, we want to show what the consensus is on a topic.
So Danny Sullivan said, Hey, this is not how search works. We don’t use personalization in that way. The most personalization we go for is really twofold. One is localization, in which somebody confuses personalization. Localization is basically I’m searching for pizza shops. Google’s gonna show Hey, I’m in New York City with my phone. I want a pizza shop that’s around the corner.
It’s knowing where you are and showing you personalized results like that. But if somebody standing right next to you doing the same search for pizza shops, they’ll probably get exactly the same information. So it’s not really personalized, it’s more localized.
A second thing is his previous search query immediate previous search query. So if you search for, I don’t know, football games, and then you search for Jaguar right after that, Google’s then gonna go ahead and be like, alright, you just search for football will probably show you the Jaguar football team, as opposed to showing you the animal or the car.
And then if you do the search for that tomorrow, Google might not you know what, we’ll probably just show you what we normally show people because you’re not using immediately search for football on the day before. So it’s kind of that level of personalization. And it’s not this filter bubble. And that’s a shame because a lot of people even like the smartest people out there.
And I always blame them, they heard at once back in 2010. And this is how it works. They heard about the filter bubble, and they go on these, you know, widely watched and consumed podcasts that talk about these things, and they misinformed the public. And then you hear people who are leading us like the Senate and Congress talking with people from Google on these panels and Google’s like, well, it doesn’t work that way.
And they’re like, No, it does and No, it doesn’t work that way. And I think they’re lying because they just don’t understand how search works. And that kind of upsets me because if I know how search works, and I see our senators and Congresspeople making laws based on these issues with search. And I’m like, No, you got it wrong, and like what else do they get wrong?
I don’t know anything about movies? I don’t know anything about production. I don’t know anything about medical stuff. I know a lot of a lot about a lot of things, internet policies. And why are these companies, the senators, and got it wrong with search? They’re probably getting wrong about everything. So I don’t know what to put, you know, it’s kind of upsetting on that level.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Well, Andrew Yang is supposed to be you know, a very sort of techno thinking forward-thinking guy and so even he gets, him getting it wrong is kind of concerning. Because, you know, the neophytes in Congress are getting it way wrong. I mean, you could see it in the hearings. It’s fascinating.
Barry Schwartz: Yeah. And that’s, that’s the scary part again, I mean, and some of them are like if you tell them they’re wrong. You never tell like these guys. You can’t tell them they’re wrong. And they get dismissive. They get annoyed, like, get defensive. And they’ll then go ahead and lay down even more, though, they’ll say, Oh, you think I’m wrong? I’m going to tell you that I’m right.
I just keep saying this to everybody and doubling down on being wrong. Yeah, I mean, it’s very busy people. And they hear snippets, and they piece those pieces together, and they make up their own truth. And I’m just focused in SEO and search. And I guess I know search, because that’s my focus. I don’t think anybody can be an expert in everything.
Because there’s not enough time in a day, and some people just have to rely on information they’re being told. So I don’t really blame Andrew Yang, or at least, like he was like defensive or Mitch, when he when Danny Sullivan said, you know, you’re wrong.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So yeah, I think that’s maybe a life lesson. People need to be okay with being told that they’re wrong. And some think of it as growth as opposed to thinking of it as offensive. But that’s a topic for a completely different type of podcast. So you know, I don’t really get obsessed with the so-called Search bubble, I have a pretty, you know, a pretty decent understanding of how Google works.
Is Google Too Big to Fail?
Jon-Mikel Bailey: But I do wonder, you know, Google just rolled out these vehicle ads that they’re now showing in the SERPs. And more and more, you know, as users, we almost expect that Google will show you everything you need, right in the search results page. So you don’t have to click. It’s great for the user. But I have concerns. I mean, we become more and more hooked on Google with each update like this.
And I wonder, and maybe I’m reaching here, but is Google a monopoly? Or maybe a fairer question? Is Google becoming too big to fail? I know there’s a lot in there.
Barry Schwartz: Yes, that’s a tough question. I mean, Google, if you look at your search, you know, analytics. Google has 90% of pretty much every traffic that’s sent to any website if you filter by Google versus Bing, or DuckDuckGo. So yeah, Google has a huge market share. Is that meaning the monopoly I don’t deserve? Or I’m not a politician.
I don’t know how this monopoly stuff works. I just don’t think. I don’t know. I don’t think like, in general, it’s, you know, I think in general, it’s very, very easy to switch search engines, it’s very easy from going to google.com to bing.com to duckduckgo.com. If somebody is unhappy with the search results, it’s very easy for them to switch.
Now, of course, you could say, Well, Google now has chrome, the chrome browser. They have Android. They didn’t have that when they went ahead and took over market share from you know, Alta Vista and Bing and previously MSN. Yahoo and so forth, Microsoft on the PC, they could have easily dominated with Internet Explorer back then and so forth. And there are less.
So I don’t know, I think there is something around the antitrust and making it harder for people to switch search engines. At the same time, I think it’s fairly easy to switch a search engine, just go to your browser, and you just type in whatever search engine you want. But you know, like you said, I mean, there are, Google’s venturing into many, many verticals.
You saw it with dictionary results in the early days to weather results, like what’s the weather, map, TV listings, movies, movie reviews, shopping, and then the facts and feature snippets. So like, what’s next? And Google’s gonna start selling homes and real estate listings and so forth? The answer is maybe and SEOs are really good at adapting to that meaning, hey, this is coming up in the search results.
It’s an ad, it’s an organic listing, there’s schema, there are structured data, what do I need to make sure my client shows up there? And I think SEOs will adapt to that every, you know, I’ve seen many, back in the dictionary sites, when Google said, We’re gonna license dictionary information. I mean, it’s licensable information, they could get that information and show it anywhere, Google license, you know, movie reviews and musical lyrics.
It’s upsetting for those sites that are building their business on licensing that content themselves and trying to rank on Google. But what’s to stop Google from licensing that information, do something that’s unique? Like maybe these podcasts, or these, you know, these interviews that Google can’t replicate themselves very easily by licensing that information for whatever money it costs.
You have to have something that’s somewhat unique, so to be upset that you’ve seen that stuff with Rand Fishkin study around zero clicks, I always want him to break out those zero clicks by telling us, you know, if somebody’s searching for how tall is Obama or how old is Trump, obviously, they’re getting the data right there.
It shows that the information is not going to click because they get the information. But if you’re doing more of like a commercial query, I want to buy something. You know, I want to deep dive into some type of project or something and figure out how to do that I’m sure that has a way higher click-through rate than somebody searching for what the is weather today.
So I think when it comes to content and building content, you have to think about what can I do that it’s kind of above and beyond what Google can replicate easily. So that’s the concern is Google has really recently ventured into doing things around buyer guides, which horrible Have you seen that I posted example of a buyer guide who kind of built using some AI? The results are pretty bad.
And that’s kind of concerning. Google is now using AI and machine learning to kind of build their own types of segments of what would be like product reviews data. But we’ll see where that goes. Google has tried things like this and backed off of it. But we’ll see. I mean, there is a concern there. But the good thing is SEOs tend to adapt to these situations and content writers tend to adapt to situations.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So just to kind of piggyback on that, you know, putting on your software hat. You know, when I talk to people about building an app or developing some sort of piece of software, there’s always this concern that Well, Google might just develop it themselves. And that puts us out of business. Is that sort of still in line with with your idea of being unique? Or is that an inherent risk? Or is that even a fair question to ask you?
Barry Schwartz: No, it is I mean, we do a lot of startup, build a lot of startup programs for a lot of companies. So I’ll tell you one was a startup that wanted to go ahead and write one COVID launched was an issue. They wanted to say which restaurants require which, which places, restaurants, movie theater, whatever it might be, require certain regulations they have?
Do they have a great protocol for cleaning, masking? Do they require masks? Do they require whatever it might be? And I’m like, I don’t think we should launch this. I think Google could easily add this to Google Business Profiles, and then have the businesses and the data that Google could quickly show in Google Local results.
We launched it, the client was adamant about that. And the client owes me a fortune of money, because he never finished paying me. Pay me a lot. And then when it came to the final payment, you know, see you later. That’s what happens with startups in building software. So sadly, I took a hit with that.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: I mean, fair, though, I don’t know. I don’t want to beat up on Google. And I don’t want to put you in the hot seat. But it does seem that, you know, from the whole standpoint of innovation and a level playing field, it’s kind of tough to, you know, to compete against something like Google.
Barry Schwartz: Yeah. It is. But again, there’s ways to do it. I mean, Google’s not competing with me. They are now is Google competing with me about writing SEO news. And they do they have the developer areas, they’re doing lots of YouTube videos, lots of interaction with Social. But there’s ways to do it better.
I mean, I’ve a huge running into myself and Google’s encroaching, of course. But I don’t know, Google take over everything in the world, potentially, will government allow it? No. I mean, so they might be broken up over time. But I don’t, I don’t know, I’m not into the politics side, I just say, you know, when it comes to writing content, you have to do something that’s better than the next, or else Google’s not gonna rank it.
And if you can do it better than anybody else, I mean, the goal when it comes, what I always tell people is to build something that Google’s embarrassed not to rank well, you know, so then engineers saw the query and say, “why is the site not ranking for it?” That it should be ranking for Google that their algorithms to rank it? Will Google ever decide to replace you by building their own version of it, potentially? And then you’re out of luck?
I mean, they did it with Yelp. They did it with, you know, all those local search engines. And it is what it is.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: I mean, it’s fun to speculate. And I like to create triggers for conspiracy theorists, but…
Barry Schwartz: I thought conspiracy. Yeah, true. And Google does this. So you got to keep adapting. Yes, check.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Yeah, no, I like what you said about creating something that Google would be upset about not listing in their search. So I think that’s a great way to, you know, to kind of think of ways to stay creative and nimble and competitive.
Google+ and the Future of Google in Social Media
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So, I want to switch gears. And I want to talk about social media. You know, speaking of Google, you know, building things and trying things. They’ve tried and failed at social media with Google+. And I think there was something something before precursor to that. I don’t remember what it was called. But I’m not gonna say that social media is dying. But it seems to it seems to be losing its luster in terms of, you know, people wanting to get on the “social media bandwagon.” So do you think Google will try their hat as social media again? Did they learn their lesson with Google Plus?
Barry Schwartz: Right, so one is I don’t know. I mean, I think social media is here. The question is, it’s adapting people like the latest DOM. So I mean, it was MySpace in the old days. You know, Facebook, then, I guess, Instagram, Tik Tok. I mean, TikToks where it’s at, I don’t know, I’m not on TikTok. The people are moving to more privacy-focused stuff, title or whatever. So there’s a lot of that.
And there’s always something new constantly in question. What’s gonna be the next thing? I’m a big Twitter user because I’m a content person. I don’t really show pictures of myself. I’m not really that great to look at. So I’m not on Instagram so much. But Google has tried to use, Google had Orkut, Google Wave, I think…
Jon-Mikel Bailey. That’s what I was thinking of, yeah.
Barry Schwartz: Buzz and then Google Plus. And then Google converted that when they decommissioned it to Google Currents, I think, which they use internally, I think, for the most part, and for Google Suite, app users or whatever. So that’s the layer. Also you think about Google Hangouts, Google, Meet, YouTube, those are all forms of social networks as well.
And that’s live and working very well. So is Google going to compete in social in the future? I think they currently are looking at those types of brands that they have. The question for me as a search guy is will Google use social factors in search? And I don’t think so. They tried it. Microsoft Bing tried it as well with Facebook partnership, it didn’t work.
So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if Google’s gonna build another social network as a Facebook competitor. And kind of Facebook’s kind of on the decline a little bit.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Yeah, that’s kind of what I was getting at is do they even need to go after something like Facebook anymore? It doesn’t seem like they do?
Barry Schwartz: No, I think I’m looking at like verticals of it. They also have like, I don’t know, lots of messenger apps. They’ve had so many different messenger apps over the years. So they try a lot of things. So if you look at the Google graveyard, products that they actually decommissioned over the years, things that were really popular, they still love to try new things and fail, they could fail, they can afford to fail more than anybody else.
So yeah, we’ll see. Who knows. I’m not sure if they’ll ever come up with another Facebook version, but maybe something new. The cameos are going away and I remember that we could like upload, you know, videos like that. So I don’t know. We’ll see. They’re really good at search. So yeah, I would love to see them focus, you know, keep obviously they’re gonna keep focusing on making their search product, you know, the best they can possibly be.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: So yeah, that’s an interesting take on it. It’s going to be curious to see. It’s always fun to see what comes down next. You know what Google was working on and what’s gonna stick and what’s not. And it’s never a dull moment, that’s for sure.
So, alright. Well, very, I really appreciate you being on here. I think there’s a lot in here for people to chew on. And, you know, I think we’ll just have to keep our eyes on Google. But, you know, I think the lesson that I take from this is to stay relevant, stay unique, and develop products and services and content that your clients are gonna really want.
Barry Schwartz: Thank you so much for having me here.
Jon-Mikel Bailey: Yeah, have a great one.
